Pram: "... Like An Imprisoned Country"

How did you come to know you were to receive tha Ramon Magsasay Award?
Initially, I was telephoned from Kuala Lumpur and asked if I could go to the Philippines. It was then I thought such a request could only be iin connection with the Ramon Magsasay. For 3 years, I have been told I would be nominated for the award from Malaysia. Soon after, I received a fax dated 19 July 1995 from the Ramon Magsasay Award Foundation sent by Trustee Nona B. Javier. This fax stated I was to be honored with the Ramon Magasay Award in the category of Journalism, Literature and Creative Communication.

How do you fell about this honor?
Yeah happy of course, it seems waht I had been working toward all these years has been recognized. Especially now given my position - being the object of expropriation, slander, all sort of accusations and not being in a posistion to defend myself - after 30 years there is someone who appreciates my works. I never hope for such an award. Ia have also been told many people have nominated for the Nobel prize, but it's up to them....

And what about the reasonable prize?
Many people have aksed : what are you going to do with all the money? Yeah, I know the character of the New Order, so I will keep my eye on it so it doesn't get taken away. I will keep the money in reserve. Because of the recent prohibition of my book "Nyanyi Sunyi Seorang Bisu" (The Silent Song of a Mute Person), money I spent on the publication of the book, my wife's shopping money, will probably never returned.

Is there any possibility you will be able to leave?
Whether or not I leave depends on several things. First, my health as I've only just had an operation. But perhaps a more crucial factor regards the permission to go overseas as my passport has been with-held since 1961. I refuse to be treated differently from other Indonesian citizens to "request special consideration" from section of the government dealing with social political issues. For the past 30 years, outside my own home, my safety has not been ensured.

In the past I have asked if it would be possible to get a passport again. In 1961, when I was invited to Australia, I went to the passport bureau, but to no avail. That same year I was arrested by General Nasution in relation to the banning of the book "Hoa Kiau in Indonesia". Since my release from jail in the New Order in 1980s, I have received many invitations to go overseas. But even when I lead a discussion at the University of Indonesia I was interrogated for 10 days. At that time I asked myself would it be possible to get a new passport, eh ......military officers would most defiitely laugh. Yeah... since then I have left the passport issue alone. With strength I have closed the book. They say we have closed the book with Napol/Tapol, but I still say I have closed the book with strength and resolution.

Do you still read the newspaper?
I read the newspaper in order to gather information about the geography of Indonesia, as an encyclopedia. I know don't follow the practicalities of politics and as far as literature and culture is concerned don't follow them at all anymore.....

Why?
My 30-years of experience have shut me off from such things. Thirty years of being oppressed. It is not only literary works I read. I read Bruce Grant, for example, about all the politicians and gods in India and judgements about democracy in India. He also qoutes Plato in regard to the beauty of democracy : a joining of harmony and disruption and people who have nothing. He said this when in ancient Greece there was already a Parliament, but 4 percent of Greeks were slaves.

Why were you drawn to the world of writting?
This is really a thing to do with my family. My father was always top of hiss class, even until he graduated from Dutch school (Kweekschool). It seemed he was dissapointed with me as he regarded me as stupid. It should take seven years to complete elementary school but it took me 10 years. I studied at the Boedi Oetomo private school where my father was the Principal. My Dutch language score was lower than scores in government school and felt inferior when I associated with people from government schools. I was afraid to express my opinion because of this inferiority complex so I began to write. My father himself was an author.

When I complete elementary school and wanted to continue on to MULO (Dutch colonial secondary school), I went to my father and told him of my intentions. Without much thought he responded immediately with," stupid child, go back to elementary school." So when the new school year commenced I when back to elementary school. My teacher asked me in Dutch," Why have you come back, you've already graduated." I grabbed my books and ran to the graveyard, located between the school and my house. I held on to a tree in the graveyard and screamed.... Even now when I remember this, my eyes become filled with tears.

In the end, I went to mechanic's school in Surabaya. My mother and I share the cost of living. Every morning at 5.am, during the harvest season, I would go th bridge which connected my village and the main town and buy newly harvested rice and later in the planting season selling this rice. From the sale of rice, I bought shoes and left for Surabaya. I felt I had to finish school as quickly as possible so I could work. I was 15 and this was the first time I had worn shoes. My mother had always taught me to be independent.

Then?
After vocational school the Japanese forces arrived. Before we obtained a diploma we were obliged to serve in the military. I had been taught by my family to be anti-Dutch, anti-colonial. Although the only way to pass school was to go through the military, yeah, I choose to escape. I left Surabaya and returned to Blora. I never had a chance to get a diploma. I worked to support my family and, as the oldest of nine brothers and sisters, organized everything and cared for my sick mother until she died while giving birth to her youngest child. My father then instructed me to leave Blora and go to Jakarta with my younger brother. In Jakarta I live with my uncle. In his house there was a typewriter which I quickly learned how to used. I applied for work at Domei, a Japanese news agency and was accepted. I also studied stenography for a year and among my teachers was Hatta, in the field of economics and Maruto Darusman in the field of sociology. During my studies I wrote my first book Muhammad Yamin, a book compiled from Yamin's speeches : "Diponegoro" and "Gadjah Mada". But, for the book, I was only paid 30 silver coins..

Which authors do you admire most?
First, I Nyoman Pandji Tisna who wrote the book "Setahun di Bedahulu" (A Year in Bedahulu). I also admire Idrus, one of the greatest stylists. For his attitude, I applaud CHairil Anwar. When people became like livestock in the Japanese era, he said, "I am a untamed animal from a group which has been thrown away" He was tortured by the Kempei ( a branch of the Japanese military) because of this poem. His earnest stance had a great influence on me.

You have said your literary works derived from settings where huge and fundamental changes have occured in this country, period of crisis. Why do these periods fascinated you?
Yeah, this is because I know myself as a nation. The tetrology "Anak Semua Bangsa" (Child of All Nations) was representative of social change at the time of national awakening which led to independence. My book "Arus Balik" (Reverse Current - to be published this August), tells of transformations from traditional independence to colonialism. There is another which has not yet been published," Arok dan Dedes" (Arok and Dedes), telling of changes from Hindu Java society to a Java Hindu. And one more, "Mangir" which describe the situation after the fall of Majapahit and villages became, united to become a village kingdom : namely Mataram.

How much time do you need to gaher information and material?
I've actually been gathering material since I can remember. I don't read materials for their scholarly content but as a means of raising spirit. If I use such scholarly methods it would be as if I were historian, but no, here I add one element, that is my ego. This has itu's own process. So material I have stored unconsciously, I release and add it with my ego. In the final stage Iam left to record it all.

What is your reaction to the release of Soebandrio and Omar Dhani?
Before they were granted clemency, I was told by an English journalist that this would occur. This journalist said ABRI did not agree with the granting clemency but Soeharto will definitely give it to them to enchance Indonesia's international image. So all has been engineered, it's turned out napol and tapol have become asset of the powers that be. I am happy, however, if suppressed people are released, not only in Indonesia but also anywhere in the world.

Why it is that only these three people were released and not others like Latief, for example?
Yeah.... as I said before, they have become political asstes. All this has been done for the importance of the authority. If the powers that be stood to gain nothing, then they would not release the prisoners.

Therefore the action only supports the status quo?
Right. There was once another journalist who asked about possibility of the granting of clemency. In other countries it is normal to grant clemency, why in Indonesia with Pancasila, isn't it possible then? Is Indonesia another planet? People who disagree with the act of clemency... don't they have relatives, neighbors, fathers? Are they made from clay? I have the impression that the tapol/napol issue has become a paranoia.....

What do you mean?
That's what's afflicted the minds of people. It is no longer natural.

And what form does it take?
Yeah, people are pursued, restricted, force to do this, forbidden to do that. Like a country which is not yet free. People forget the aim of revolutionaries. Soekarno often said "freedom to be free", but now what we have is," freedom to be unfree" What's that? This is paranoia. It's not a coincidence on 17 October 1952, Nasution pointed a cannon at the National Palace. He was a former member of KNIL (Dutch Colonial Army). And is it not a coincidence Soeharto was a former KNIL? At the time of the independence struggle the swore loyalty to the Queen of Holland. It's not a coincidence that talk is becoming more inflated.

Which revolutionary do you most admire? Tan Malaka? Mas Marco?
(Nodding his head twice). I respect Bung Karno. He was able to give birth to a nation without blood shed. Perhaps he is the only one, or at least one among the very few. The birh of a nation, whereever it may be, usually menas a blood bath.

But there were armed struggles in Aceh, Java, and in other places?
That was not for national independence. Some were for religion, some in the name of feudalism, and some, becaus of constant repression, simply went amok. There was no politics, there was no elements of politics. This continued to happen throughout the colonial period. It's not that I don't respect such movements... but in the national struggle Soekarno was number one, he was a grat person. There was a dualism in revolutionary thought : Soekarno wanted negotiation, and the youth want to take arms. Until the present day this has been avoided.

Are you interested in religion?
I absorb religious information from many places, some from Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, Hinduism, anything to make myself strong. But this is not a matter of religion, religion as a whole. If it's a matter of life itself, I beleive in God, and God is the almighty. Even thousands of years before messiah, He knew I would be like this.

But your often accused of being communist and anti-religion?
That's what paranoid think who only wish to safeguard the pot of rice - by forcing people into a corner and giving them a label. Indeed, I'am not religious. Before sleep I contemplate and reflect in order to better myself, along with the control of my breath. In this atmosphere I surrender myself. If this is regarded as anti-religion, then so it is. Don't make me into something I'm not. I don't force people to be what they are not.